The emotional art of podcast editing with Matthew Bliss

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Today we have Matthew Bliss on the

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podcast matthew came into my orbit,

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I think on LinkedIn originally.

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As a podcast editor.

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So, someone on the other side that has

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the headphones on all the time, that

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listens to everything that all you

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podcasters do, and makes it better.

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I thought maybe today it was going to

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be a really interesting conversation

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to have with Matthew about the

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actual editing side of things.

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Because if you're not editing your own

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show and you're handing it off to a

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company, to an agency, to an editor,

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you don't quite get what's involved

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with taking what is sometimes a turd

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and turning it into something that

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is incredible, So that's basically

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our job a lot of the time is you

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give us something that you feel

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needs work and then we turn it into

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something that really tells a story.

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Matthew, I'd like to know, first

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off, what was the pull to get into

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podcasting in the first place?

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Well, for me, it largely started during

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the pandemic, getting started myself

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with a, with a humble blue Yeti, but

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understanding at the time as an Edison

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now that it's, very humble indeed.

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from 2020 until maybe, the end of 2021.

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That was my first

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journey into podcasting.

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I was, trying to figure out

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how to make me sound better

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and record engaging content.

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And for me having a very strong technical

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background in computer support and,

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training people with in IT, it meant that

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I started to hyper focus on every aspect.

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And the more you listen to yourself,

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the more you hear, how terrible

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you sound, which is, Partly a

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cognitive bias at the same time.

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It's a, technical issue if

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you have a blue Yeti that is.

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After that, I started hearing more

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and more and starting to fix more

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and more and you start hearing the

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reverb and how to fix that and treat

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your environment to reduce echo.

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then you jump the massive hurdle of

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parametric EQ and, it's a fun game.

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It's a tough game to get into,

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but, once you get over those hills

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of, Figuring out all the aspects of

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audio that you need to make a podcast

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sound either passable or fantastic.

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Then you kind of catch the

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bug to do it for other people.

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towards the beginning of 2023,

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I started doing it for others.

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And, yeah, it's sort of emerged

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into a little business that

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I've got going for myself.

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EQ, if anyone doesn't know what

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parametric EQ is, it is something

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where we take out, we listen to

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you intently from a, like, on the

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head, with the headphones or with

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studio monitors or something.

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We listened to your voice intently

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and we listened for all the annoying

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frequencies that most people won't

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realize are grating on them, but they

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are something that you can optimize

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and make someone sound a lot better.

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Especially if you're working with a

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microphone that isn't great and you're

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trying to give it more boost, you're

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trying to make it feel more like full

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of depth and full of some bass and then

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maybe the top end of that microphone

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has lots of sibilance and it has lots

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of little sort of sounds in that top

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that are really quite frustrating.

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That's one of the aspects of podcast

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editing that people don't really

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think about, but when we listen, we

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can hear all of that and you won't

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hear it because we've fixed it by

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the time it gets put out there.

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But there is an actual, definite,

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delicate balance that goes into making

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something sound better from EQ and you

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can also get it very wrong as well.

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So that's why Matthew was saying

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getting over that hurdle is actually

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quite a big one because until

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your ears are trained, you can't.

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You kind of don't even realize what

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it is that you are looking for.

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and it's something that you start

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to learn over time what makes

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it good versus not so great.

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And everyone's journey is different.

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Like I started with the Blue Yeti.

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That's not a parametric EQ problem.

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That's a reverb problem.

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Because it is a condenser mic

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that picks up the entire room.

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my next microphone after

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that was a Shure MV7X.

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Which is, by all accounts,

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a fantastic microphone.

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An XLR only microphone, not a USB.

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For my voice, if you're looking at a

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waveform, it just, sounded like all

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of the bars would be completely full

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on that waveform, like someone has

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done a really bad job editing it.

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Which is not the case, and unfortunately,

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if you're fighting a microphone with

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that issue, the real solution really

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is just to find a better microphone.

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I want to know from you, how invested

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we get as audio editors into the

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stuff that we're actually editing.

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So to give context, here at Bambi

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Media, we have five editors, and 60

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odd clients or something, a lot of

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clients, that we edit every week,

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we get very used to and emotionally

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invested in each of these hosts.

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We feel like we know them very well.

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We can tell when they're

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not feeling well.

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You can hear it in someone's voice when

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they're feeling a bit off or when they

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really shouldn't be recording because

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they're not really, like, that excited

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and they're not really that interested.

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They feel like they're

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pushing it out or something.

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We feel that we can hear it.

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And in the same way, Matthew has

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a podcast that he works on that.

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I'd like you to tell me the story

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of this podcast and the impact

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that that has had on you as an

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now this particular client I picked

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up while I was still in Australia,

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but currently living in Ireland.

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The podcast began as Kintsugi Heroes.

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now this was started by Ian Westmoreland

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as someone who's worked on mentoring

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men as a, uh, an organization to support

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men for over 11 years with the different

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kinds of issues that they experience.

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Much more common these

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days, I think, and visible.

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The art of Kintsugi, which inspired

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the name, is that the repairing

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of Japanese pottery with gold

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leaf to improve the value of that

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pottery after it's been broken.

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So that analogy carries over

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to the kinds of guests that are

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interviewed on Kintsugi Heroes.

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They are people who have experienced

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a great amount of trauma or adversity,

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and they have a story to tell and share.

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About how they overcame that adversity

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and have come out either for the

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better or Learn something about

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themselves or the world that they

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can share on the podcast with us,

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it's a very compelling podcast in the

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sense that There are some stories out

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there that you really wouldn't expect

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to hear that people can go through.

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in preparation for this, I, I thought

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of a few examples because at this

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stage, the podcast is about 64

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episodes in, and there's a few other

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podcasts they're starting to begin

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under the same umbrella, all dealing

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with different kinds of stories.

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Like, in 2019 and 2020, there was a

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massive bushfire in Victoria, New South

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Wales, and That entire series is done.

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You can look it up right now.

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It's called the Kintsugi

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Heroes Alpine series.

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And that one interviewed people who

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were in the depths of the fires.

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They were either fighting them or

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had to evacuate their house and

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have been in recovery since then.

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And shared those experiences.

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the current season that we're

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editing and releasing at the

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moment is called Beyond the Deluge.

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In 2022 in the town of Broke and the

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Hunter Valley in New South Wales,

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there was a massive flood, the kind

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that they haven't seen in 70 years.

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And even today, two years

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on, they're still recovering.

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People don't have their houses.

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They're still dealing

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with the fallout of that.

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but there's a couple of stories from the.

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The main podcast feed that really stand

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out in terms of the editing perspective

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as well as the listening perspective.

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Martin Gillespie, which I think

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was episode 14, he had come

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to Australia from Scotland.

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He had, Discovered he had a type of

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blood cancer, a very rare one, that he

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overcame, went home to visit his family,

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came back, and then found that his dad

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had had a heart attack while trimming the

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garden and landed on his garden shears.

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and it stabbed him right

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through the heart as well.

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So that was almost immediate death.

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Hang on.

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He had a heart attack and then

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stabbed himself in the heart.

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Potentially, I may be misremembering

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this one just a little bit.

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whatever the cause was, he fell off and

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landed on the shears that were sitting

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in his pocket and that was him gone.

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But the story doesn't end there.

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he had to immediately go back And, attend

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the funeral and be with his family.

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And upon attending the funeral, they

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discovered that there was someone

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in attendance who looked very much

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like him, almost exactly like him.

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they discovered that his father had

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been having an affair and a family

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with someone a couple of blocks away.

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And so he was introducing himself

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and coming to terms with having

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a brother that he never knew

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about, like a half brother.

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And then he went back to Australia

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and unfortunately the cancer returned,

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as someone who's experienced all

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that, he's very much focused on

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sharing information about good

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health and taking care of oneself.

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Hearing and editing those kinds

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of stories can be very traumatic.

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And it covers the whole gamut of things.

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There's someone who had their first child

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that was told it was in such poor health

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that it would die within the first week.

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They took it home.

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It took a month for the child to die.

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It had no positive prospect of living.

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But during this time, she also

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discovered that her husband had been

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cheating on her and asked him to

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stop, which unfortunately he didn't.

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So not only did she have to deal with

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separation from a child that she was

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expecting to have, but also a husband

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that she thought she could trust.

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And it took years to come out of that

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hole, but she's come out for the better.

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So The Kintsugi Heroes feed is

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Available for you to look at if

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you're curious to hear more of these

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stories or if it resonates with

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you dear listener as someone who's

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experienced that kind of trauma it's

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part of the reason the podcast exists

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is that these stories can be shared

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and Part of the road to recovery is

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understanding that it's not just you.

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You're not alone but also

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that these stories can kind

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of inform your own recovery.

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Sharing is a big part of recovering

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from these kinds of traumas, so

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the podcast is a way to do that.

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how lost do you get in

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the edit, in the story?

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How do you feel like it has changed

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you or has it changed you working on

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a show like this that has a lot of

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storytelling and emotion involved?

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well look, this is probably one of

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those things where I think to myself,

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I was probably built for this.

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Because I have a very easy time

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kind of rolling off the issues that

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get talked about on these episodes.

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in terms of the investment, hearing

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the raw detail of these stories.

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does mean that you are making

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interesting choices sometimes.

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I remember the first episode that

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I edited, there was someone talking

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who had, I think his wife had a brain

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hemorrhage while they were on a bike

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ride, or someone had assaulted her,

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I can't quite recall, but During

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the podcast, because he had his

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own company where he was mentoring

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and coaching and talking to people,

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he had a way of delivering his

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content that had so much impact.

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The problem with that as a podcast editor

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is at least at the very surface level,

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you think, okay, no spaces, we don't

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want to hear waffle, we want to remove

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filler words, all these things that AI

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purports to do, but we'll maybe talk

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about that in a sec, now listening to it

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and the way that he delivers the content,

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you start to have to think to yourself,

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well, how do I edit this thing together?

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Because every word has such gravity.

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and impact to it, and such raw emotion.

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Like, as a raw conversation, you

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probably want to leave it alone.

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You know that as a podcast listener,

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you're not going to sit there waiting

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with two seconds of silence between

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every sentence to continue listening.

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There's just a different audio

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listening experience to, to listen to.

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watching someone.

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part of the emotional investment

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of doing the editing is hearing

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the story and wanting to make sure

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that that story that you end up

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cutting together doesn't remove what

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represents what they're trying to do.

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that you're representing

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them as they are, but also

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making it an experience for the

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listener where they can feel connected

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even if they can't see the person.

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Is that

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essentially what you're saying?

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what that means necessarily as an editor

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is you have to be open emotionally to

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feeling the experience and understanding

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what the listener's experience will be

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like listening to that emotional moment.

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And that's probably the biggest

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part of doing this kind of editing

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for these types of stories.

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Yeah, it's very powerful, and I

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think, one of the best ways to pull

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that emotion, is when I hear things

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like this where it's a story that's

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developing and there's someone that's

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getting really emotional about a

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topic, is I let, I let the silence

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go But then I find music or folly and

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I put it in to heighten the emotion.

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Because what I want is the listener

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to do is really feel like tingles.

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I want to pull out as much of

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the actual emotion that I can.

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And sometimes, The best way to do that

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is actually introducing low level string

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pads or some sort of building music

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that, that really creates this sense

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of urgency or, you know, or just it.

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sadness, whatever the emotion

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is, that's something that can

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absolutely help in those situations.

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If you don't have video cues, if

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you're only working with audio,

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certainly what I've found to be

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the most effective in doing that.

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so I've been doing this now for

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about a decade as an audio editor.

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And then before that, a podcast editor,

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before that I was 15 years as a musician.

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And so obviously I'm very rooted in,

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creating stories and telling stories

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and pulling emotions out of music.

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Then when I moved into audio,

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speech, I had that struggle that

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you explain where it's like, how

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do I get that emotion to land?

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Like, it needs to land, it needs

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space, but It also can't be boring.

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Like it can't be too full of gaps.

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It has to be something that pulls

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someone along that keeps them listening.

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I worked on a show called Slave

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Stealer originally by, brought to you

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by Operation Underground Railroad.

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It was actually one

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of my first ever jobs.

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And I would sit there bawling, like

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actually bawling my eyes out, editing

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this show, because they talked about

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child sex trafficking, they talked about

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really just awful things, and going

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on missions, and, rescuing children,

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and I had a small child at the time.

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and I couldn't separate

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from

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the emotion of that because it

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felt so real, it felt so real.

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Like, it didn't make sense to me that

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this was a world, firstly, that I never

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knew existed before that moment, before

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I started editing this particular show,

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And I couldn't unlearn it as well.

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And that's something that, as a

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podcast editor, you now know all these

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things that you never knew before and

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it brings you to a different place.

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That's why I asked the question

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of, like, how has it changed you?

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For me, personally, it changed me in

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a you know, Instrumental way where I

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went hang on my life is a tiny bubble

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I'm a tiny speck on a giant world

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where there's a bunch of stuff good

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and bad that happens and how can I

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create a experience for someone where

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firstly they learn something, they

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feel a real emotion, and hopefully

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they do something as a result of what

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they're just listening to or watching,

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if that's, if it's a video experience.

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So I definitely understand, and I

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definitely see the power in creating

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space, silence, and then also

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using music and folly to heighten

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a mood in ways that your audience

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doesn't even actually notice.

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Realize is happening

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Mm-Hmm.

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Yeah, that's the best use of music.

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I'm just discovering this for myself.

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and I guess that if you watch the trailer

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for the Flood series for Kintsugi Heroes,

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you'll hear some of that work for me.

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Like, I picked a, we've got

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the host delivering kind of a

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monologue about an introduction to

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the series and their experience.

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And it's like a piano interlude from

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a royalty free music site, and it

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just kind of crescendos the more he

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talks about it, but you can't just

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mathematically put that into, a waveform.

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You have to feel it.

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You're probably very familiar with the

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moment where you put a track in and

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you kind of shuffle it around and move

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it to different places and then you

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hear them say the thing and it like

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hits the big moment in the track and

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you're like, oh man, that's the one.

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when it does drop off too.

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It's like it heightens.

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heightens, heightens, heightens, and

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then it's just, you know, and it makes

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you feel, makes you feel things, which

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I think is the whole point of your job.

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Of my job.

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Although I don't edit very much anymore.

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I kind of wish I did.

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it gets me so excited about,

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I just love all this stuff.

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Your job is so important and it's

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something that if you edit your own

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show as well, the listener, you know

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that you actually understand how

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important your job is to create a

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sense of purpose around each individual

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episode that you're creating.

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Why does it exist?

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Who is it for?

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What emotion are you trying to evoke?

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Is there a story that you can feed?

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into it?

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And then how do you tie it all together

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into something that feels really

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firstly produced, not overproduced,

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but feels succinct and like someone

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can actually learn from as well.

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So yeah, I just think that

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it's an important role

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podcasting is getting flooded There's

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so many people that are coming

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to the medium keen to get stuck

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in and share their own stories.

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But a lot of what gets talked

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about is the technical stuff.

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And that's when the AI stuff comes

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in and platforms like Riverside, they

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can offer functions like removing

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ums and ahs and fillers and silences.

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But as we just said, those

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silences, there's value in them.

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I don't think I've seen a course offered

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for podcasters on how to emotionally

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resonate and express a podcasting story.

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And if there are some, then I'd love

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to hear about them because they would

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be the ones to recommend to people

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to, to get a decent podcast going.

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And again, you know, every

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podcast is different.

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If it's video game news, if it's

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movie reviews, it's going to be

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lighthearted, but if you're someone

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with a story or, telling people's

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stories, then having the skills to do

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the things we've talked about today is

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going to be really important to you.

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Oh, Matthew, it's been so great

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having a chat to you about.

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Something that I personally

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I'm obsessed with it.

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obviously being someone who's

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now been working in the space

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for so long and not sick of it.

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So it's just been a joy to

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actually talk to you about it.

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And everyone, we're going to put

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links in the show notes today for

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the podcast that Matthew has talked

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specifically about so that you can

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go and listen to A, some of the work

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that he's done, which is super cool.

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And then also just these

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stories sound really impactful.

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They sound like.

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if you feel like you're having a bad

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day, and you're all, woe is me, then

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sometimes something like this is

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what you need to go and listen to.

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It's putting yourself in a situation

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where you realize that there are people

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that have it so much worse than you.

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I think that that's powerful as well.

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It's, it's not even that.

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I think it's, it's more of the idea

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that when people say go to a support

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group and that can be the biggest

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step, this is a way for you to hear

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about experiences, kind of share

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your own in your own mind as you hear

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about them, and connect with someone.

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Because as we know, is an

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incredibly engaging medium.

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It engages in a much different way to

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snappy YouTube videos and radio shows.

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That kind of engagement and connection,

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Yeah, that's beautiful.

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Absolutely.

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Oh, all right.

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Well, thanks so much.

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And I will talk to you again soon.

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Absolutely.